OK, BAR, so Easter is over, and yet I feel crappier knowing that I am responsible for the torture and execution of an innocent man,
And you suggest that I should rejoice?
As if a "Thanks, dude" sufficed? Even if I wore a shirt at tie--does that equal it?
BAR, the human race is rotten, and we owe everything to the Son's sacrifice.
This is more to lament as it is to celebrate.
I am glad to be saved, but I am saddened that it took His suffering and Death to forgive me my transgressions.
This is why Easter isn't a "Let's celebrate" holiday. God is good and wonderful enough to forgive us.
We are bad enough to need our Lord to suffer and die for our redemption.
Now have a party! Eat Peeps and ham!
You've lived so that he who did nothing wrong had to die.
Go ahead and say that such is the thoughts for Good Friday.
I have yet to meet the man or woman who repents that evening. There isn't even any good TV!
Good Friday is merely the reminder that people had better buy crap for their kids come the next Sunday.
"What did you ever do to deserve Jesus's suffering and death?"
ReplyDeleteNothing!!
That's what's so great about Easter, and Good Friday. I was lost, with no chance to earn salvation, and I get an undeserved gift of salvation worth more than anything I could ever imagine. That's why I rejoice on Easter. Not only on Easter, I'm thankful every day. Yes, I'm a sinner and deserve the punishment of Hell. But despite that, God has seen fit to forgive all of that sinfulness out of His own mercy, through no merit of my own.
If you keep dwelling on how pitiful you are (and you are!), then how can you be a witness to God's Love? Who would want to willingly admit their own guilt and worthlessness, without the knowledge of forgiveness and salvation? Lighten up and enjoy the Gospel once in a while, Aristos!
Oh, Catholic guilt. I rejoice that I have escaped your clutches at last.
ReplyDeleteThis is exactly where Catholics are dead wrong - literally. Read John chapter 16. Guilt of the conscience is only meant to convict one of sin, not to make one feel bad all the time. I submit that a loving God would not wish that burden upon his people and doesn't.
You suggest: "[Easter] is more to lament as it it to celebrate." I contend that your could not be more wrong. It was God's plan for salvation that Christ would live and die to destroy eternal death and its power over us. Your Catholic, so you say "God's will be done" every week. God's will was done, and in Christ's words "It is finished." This is to be celebrated; God is to be praised!
We should not lament that God used the worst in humanity to redeem us. We should celebrate his capacity for mercy and goodness for wanting to do so. We owe a spirit of thankfulness, and a heart of worship but we owe no guilt. We do not celebrate his death, but his destruction of it when he rebuilt the temple they destroyed in three days.
God be praised!
And after checking all of the comments, starting at the top and working my way down the page, I think it is in order to say, "Welcome back to the party, Drew!"
ReplyDeleteI have been justly rebuked by BAR and Drew for the tone of my Easter comments, specifically that people should be more appalled by the sinfulness that made the Passion and Resurrection necessary.
ReplyDeleteWe were told to repent--as in change our hearts--, not merely to lament our iniquities.
We should rejoice and be grateful.
Still, Drew--as to your rejection of Catholic guilt. What should we make of that, as if you're entitled to forgiveness of sins that you are not guilty of committing?
As for a loving God not wishing to submit a burden on the people, I'm not sure if the whole of the Bible supports that thesis.
The Son didn't come wielding a sword, but the Father unholstered his piece more than a few times.
Just piling on here, Aristos, but do you agree that God doesn't want us moping around?
ReplyDeleteDid Jesus leave his disciples with the last command to spread the Guilt News around the world?
Bob:
ReplyDeleteJesus did not do so, but it doesn't take much thought to see more than a bit of guilt for which we must account.
For me, I cannot imagine how I am fit for heaven, even with Jesus's sacrifice--which I believe was real.
Maybe I just cannot fathom how complete is God's mercy? Indeed, I can barely forgive a guy who cuts me off on the road.
Perhaps it's just my hang up, but a part of me wishes that God/Jesus asked for more.
Still, to use your own argument. Of course Jesus did not "leave his disciples with the last command to spread the Guilt News around the world."
Such was not Jesus's mission.
However, from a logical perspective, spreading the word that we are saved more than suggests that we were previously condemned.
In short, we are A-holes, but God winks at us.
Aristos said:
ReplyDelete"For me, I cannot imagine how I am fit for heaven, even with Jesus's sacrifice--which I believe was real."
Let's say your kid screws up and you really blow your top. Then he runs away and doesn't ever want to come back home because he can't believe how bad he screwed up.
Would that be a good outcome?
"Perhaps it's just my hang up, but a part of me wishes that God/Jesus asked for more."
But you're not doing what He asked if you can't move on from this. He wants you to start forgiving others and love them--even the people who cut you off.
So rather than wonder why He didn't demand more, you should first do what He actually demanded, eh?
And then once you can start forgiving a-hole drivers, maybe you can forgive humanity for driving nails into His hands--after all, Jesus did. If we weren't worthy* of forgiveness, why did He grant it?
* I realize I'm treading on thin ice here, fellow Bible thumpers. I'm not saying we earned our salvation, but yes I think it is perfectly defensible to say we are worthy of it since God granted it.
Oh, now we're getting somewhere. You said: "a part of me wishes that God/Jesus asked for more."
ReplyDeleteWhat can you give God? Ponder that for a moment, because the answer is only slightly more profound that nothing. We can give the Lord nothing but our allegiance - to use our free will to further God's will. And through this demonstration of faith, behavior is transformed.
Luke 6:45
The good person out of the good treasure of his heart produces good, and the evil person out of his evil treasure produces evil, for out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks.
I know perfectly well that I have nothing to ask of God. What I mean, from my perspective, is that if someone had wronged me the way that I have wronged God, then I would want an apology.
ReplyDeleteYou guys keep throwing the prodigal son at me, but it still doesn't answer my question.
Really, are we just a bunch of freeloaders? We sit along the streets leading to heaven, mugs in had, begging for enough spare change?
What I'm getting at is why, in God's name (that's called irony), does God forgive us? He clearly stated in Genesis that death was the price of sin. What made him change his mind?
Why do I deserve better than some Joe Schmoe, who was living in Sodom (at the time of God's destruction of the city), but did not want to commit sodomy?
To this guy, God said, "F--- You! You're going to die with the rest of them!"
But to me, he said, "You are forgiven because I have suffered on your part."
This makes no sense to me.
Why did God go from killing to saving?
By the way, BAR, I foresee your next comment--since I just set myself in the city of Sodom.
Comment what you want, but remember that, as my good friend, you are an accomplice to something that only God can forgive--or can he (not in the state of Georgia).
"You guys keep throwing the prodigal son at me, but it still doesn't answer my question."
ReplyDeleteWe're throwing more than just that, though. For example, I am reminding you that Jesus commands you to forgive people. And you are admitting that you don't (at least you don't joyfully).
So I'm saying that if you did, you would get into the mindset of understanding God better and why He acts the way He does.
As far as Sodom etc., someone else please correct me, but do we know for sure that all those people are currently in hell? I mean, God still allows people to get wiped out today, even though some of them are saved. So I'm not certain that the non-sodomizing Sodomite is currently in hell, but I grant that I have no sound Scriptural basis for saying that.
Jesus tells us to forgive because, in the end, it is not we who are wronged. Sin is against God. My point about Sodom is that God doesn't always forgive. However, your counter-point to my Sodomite point is well played.
ReplyDeleteYou give some implication that I don't forgive people ("at least not joyfully").
Am I to believe that only Noah and his clan were worthy of saving from the flood? Was he that much better than anyone else?
If the world was so bad as for God to have to flood it and kill nearly every living being, then why didn't he send Jesus then to save them?
If anyone ever tells you how many souls will be in heaven when you arrive, they don't know what they're talking about. We can never fully understand the ways of God, but we know that salvation is available for everyone. Those who do not believe it is already theirs will not be saved. I have occasionally felt that there should be something more that I have to do in order to prove my worthiness for salvation. But any time people try to earn even the slightest portion of their salvation, they are setting limits on the power of God. God is not limited by human abilities or reason. You cannot rely on logic or reason, not matter how much time you have spent developing those attributes, to understand God.
ReplyDeleteOne of the toughest questions in Christianity involves "innocent" people who die without ever hearing the Word of God from a missionary or attending Mass on Sunday. I don't know if any or all of those people are saved; that is for God to decide.
The Old Testament definitely has a different message than the New Testament. Those in the Old Testament were saved if they believed God's promise of a future Saviour. Those in the New Testament (and after) are saved if they believe that God's promise was kept in Christ.
Once again, if God sees fit to save only some of us, so be it. He is God, our Creator, so who are we to judge Him?